But it’s just the fringe!

Anytime I’ve brought up the horrors of what religion did to Kara Neumann, my point is always ‘countered’ with the argument that I’m merely giving an example of some fringe lunatics who are motivated through some form of mental illness or insanity. None of that is true. The monsters in the example I provide ran a successful business and were a normal part of their community. Not only that, but if I bend over backwards* and pretend like none of that matters and that, indeed, they were merely fringe examples, it doesn’t matter because there are 30 (!) states which have laws protecting the religious right to abuse one’s child by refusing medical care for him or her. There are rarely limits placed on this besides death. That means 30 (!) states allow parents to forgo medical treatment in favor of prayer or faith healing as long as they don’t kill their children. 60% of the state governments in the United States doesn’t sound like fringe to me.

And so there is yet another example of religion destroying the minds of otherwise reasonable people in the news. It’s a bill in The Bahamas that would outlaw marital rape. You’d think it’d be common sense, yet here we are with statements like this.

“It is ridiculous for them to try to make that a law, because I don’t think a man can rape his own wife. After two people get married, the Bible says that they become one – one flesh. How is it possible to rape what is yours?” asked Mr. Sutherland.

Keep in mind, this isn’t a story about a couple people who don’t like the bill. The issue is significant down there. The article states it is a majority of men who do not support this bill. There are even some women. And then there’s this.

State Minister for Social Development Loretta Butler-Turner said that over the summer months, the government would host a number of consultative meetings to better inform the public on exactly what the amendment entails.

Obama needs to go out and sell his health care reform at public events. That’s understandable. Just how to go about fixing the broken system of health care in the United States is a contentious issue with a lot of special interests, concerns for different age groups, bureaucracy, and a whole host of other things which need to be addressed as comprehensively as possible. That calls for nothing less than large-scale engagement with the public. And then there’s this issue in The Bahamas. It isn’t so complicated: Don’t rape your fucking wife, you degenerate, immoral scumbag.

In a secular society, this inanity would only be possible with legitimate instances of insanity. Religion is the pure motivation behind the efforts of those opposed to this bill in The Bahamas.

*It seems like I can give virtually every religious argument huge concessions and still make my point without injury.

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15 Responses

  1. The horrors of “what religion did to Kara Neumann” are miniscule compared to the horrors of what abortion has done to millions of sons and daughters. So whats the joke here ? Maybe the blabbermouths who pose and posture as if they are defenders of our sacred children are the real hypocrites as well as the real murderers. God will not be mocked so you had better enjoy your charade while His grace grants you breath.
    I think it is awful what happened to Kara and I do not know why God did not heal her. Neither do I know why He allows idiots to mkock His Name. Nor do I know why He allows millions of unborn babies to be destroyed. But I do know that He is the Creator and the Judge of all the earth and He will be vindicated and we are commanded to repent of sin and believe on His Son Jesus Christ as the only escape from the wrath of God which is already revealed and is yet in store for much greater expression. Repent or perish.

  2. I think it is awful what happened to Kara and I do not know why God did not heal her. Neither do I know why He allows idiots to mkock His Name. Nor do I know why He allows millions of unborn babies to be destroyed.

    Because fictional things can’t actually influence events in Nature?

  3. Yes but God is not fictional and He does actually influence events in nature and sometimes intrudes quite dramatically. But “His ways are beyond finding out” to quote the scriptures.
    And the issue of how prayer to Him affects or co-ordinates with His action is a mystery.
    We are called to faith in Him which is facilitated by His Holy Spirit and prompted by hearing His word.
    All creation testifies to His existence. His word and His Son Jesus testify to His love. Yet we do not have Him figured out. But still we can trust Him.

  4. So without figuring anything out and with him being such a mystery, you’re still able to tell us what he wants, what he does, how we can be closer to him, and that we can trust him?

  5. No I am not able to tell what He wants etc…but He has spoken in Creation and in His written word the Holy Bible.
    Those He calls to believe Him have faith in His Word and in His Person. And all are invited..in fact commanded to trust Him.

  6. So other than his existence, what are we trusting? You’ve said you cannot tell us what he wants. I presume this extends to others, no? If we cannot know what he wants, then what is there to trust?

  7. To trust His existence is a determination of great magnitude…it is the very beginning of wisdom and the proper orientation to rational sense. If He is Creator then much logic flows from that truth alone. Any idiot can walk into a house and conclude that not knowing who built it does not preclude knowing for certain who/what did not build it…. the fireplace for example did not do it. And the house did not build itself. God is the Creator and the observable creation shows His work and “speaks” volumes by itself.
    Furthermore the Bible is a document unique from all other writing in the history of writing. It’s prophecies alone are astounding and its supernatural credibility can be established by even a skeptical but honest reader. And that same document claims to be God speaking with instruction and warning and hope and explanation to humanity. As incredible as those observations seem, I simply do not have enough faith to believe any other alternative.
    So despite the fact that God does not explain everything or satisfy our curiosity, that which He does explain is all we have as truth and it and He are verifiably trustworthy.
    Thus we do know some of what He wants and thus we proceed in faith.

  8. So you are able to tell us that he wants to communicate instruction and warning and explanation? So much for your original premise, huh?

  9. Not at all. I’m surprised you could be so silly. My original observation was that we have no more right or basis to complain of God’s actions in regard to Kara than we do with regard to the awful fate of millions of unborn babies. And I observed that it is hypocritical to feign outrage at Kara’s fate and to make no issue of abortion’s impact. I further stated that I do not know why God allowed her and their outcomes. That does not at all mean that God has not spoken clearly about other issues and subjects which must be of even greater importance.

  10. You’re assuming 1) you know that God hates abortions, 2) that abortion is the same as what happened to Kara, and 3) that there is a God.

    If you know that God hates abortions, then you’re claiming to know what he wants. This is especially true since the Bible doesn’t ever talk about such medical procedures.

    I reject your claim that destroying cells is the same as destroying Kara.

    And finally, your claim that anyone is complaining about “God’s actions in regard to Kara” is wrong. The complaint specifically goes to religion and the evil of which it makes people capable and/or blind.

  11. While Mr. Friend tries to work out why god failed to intervene to save Madeline, let’s try to put ouselves in the mind of any one of the Neumann’s three teenage children as they sat there in the court, grieving over their dead sister, and heard their father say to the Judge “We are completely content with what the Lord has allowed to happen.”
    If, as is likely, these teenagers have had their brains washed and stupefied by the gospel according to Dale they’ll probably accept whatever grand plan they believe their god has in store for them. But if, on the other hand, they can now see that their parents are gripped by a type of religious mania that actually threatens their lives, then maybe they can preserve their physical and mental health by leaving their parents’ faith-based world of wishful thinking and stepping into the evidence-based world of scientific medicine.
    Dale and Leilani have no remorse because they have neatly placed their own natural responsibility as parents squarely onto the shoulders of their Lord and Saviour. They believe that by mentally offloading this burden onto Jesus it absolves them from due care and attention towards their daughter – as well as, presumably, their surviving children. From their statements in the courtroom, the Neumanns seem bemused by the case. In their minds all they’re guilty of is the purity of their faith and their complete submission to the will of their god. They’re probably proud that they were chosen to be ‘tested’ in this way, and think they’ve passed with flying colours, despite losing their daughter. Stephen Weinberg’s famous quote could have been made for this case: “Good people will do good. Evil people will do evil. But to get good people to do evil – that takes religion.”
    Suffering, as one would expect from Christianity, is a large part of this. Not on the Neumann’s part obviously – their punishment for the murder of their daughter is a monthly retreat every year for six years, where, apparently, they will be encouraged to contemplate Madeline’s dreadfully agonizing and easily preventable death. But given their religious fanaticism, I don’t think they’ll have much trouble rationalizing what an averagely moral person would call an egregious sin of omission.
    A rare case, possibly, but still another vivid illustration of Richard Dawkins’ much derided point; that religious indoctrination of children can amount to child abuse. It was clearly physical in the case of Madeline, but who knows what sort of psychological trauma these three remaining kids are suffering as a result of their parents’ madness?
    This case is further evidence that religious psychosis is a clear and present danger to children (and, of course, non-children). And it’s certainly another reason to take Christopher Hitchens’ contention seriously: ‘God is not Great – how religion poisons everything’. In this case it poisoned the fundamental, natural human bond between parents and child. dwix, augburg

  12. I was opining about the case of Kara.
    The alleged brain washing attributed by you to the gospel is no more odious than the brainwashing that allows preborn human beings to be exterminated.

  13. Reply to Mr. Hawkins ; Yes I do assume the three things you allege. God can make known one or some things He hates without making known everything He hates. I claim to know only SOME things that He wants. I do quite agree about the potential of religion to inflame and promote evil. But of course there are many types of religion.
    And what is it that you assume?
    Each person is of course free to assume whatever pleases them. And of course faith is involved in my assumptions as well as in yours. I lack the faith to assume as you do. You lack the faith to assume as I do. In our country we are free to cordially disagree. I have no agenda to promote. I believe God is able to call people to Himself by granting them faith upon hearing His written Words in Scripture. Such is a gracious and miraculous thing. But I have no caustic attitude at all toward those who benignly have no faith in God. All humans should have logic and rationality in common and may strive for those qualities with civility. Have you read, considered, refuted the writings of CS Lewis ?..especially “Mere Christianity ?”
    And have you actually read the Holy Bible ?

  14. Abortion is in the Bible. Check out Numbers 5. Also check out some of the laws for causing a woman to miscarry vs. causing an already born person to die. The differing penalties would lead one to believe that God does not value the unborn as much as the born. Why do we? Honestly, there are more important issues out there.

    My husband used to rape me quite often. It took nearly two years after the end for me to even admit what had happened. I still have a hard time calling it rape, but that’s what it was. For this to be considered at all is ludicrous. Viewing women as property and as a sex doll allowed to be degraded is a crime far worse than abortion.

  15. I quite agree that women should not be degraded. Following the instructions of the Creator of women would hardly do such a thing.
    And indeed there may be a hierarchy of value which would prioritize born life over preborn life if a forced choice must be made. That does not apply to most abortions.
    Comparing non-murderous treatment of women with abortion is ridiculous. Some women want to be property. Some women want to be “sex dolls.” Do you deny their “right to choose” or to control their own bodies ?

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