Southern Poverty Law Center, mission creep, men’s rights, feminism…

Most of my posts only take me a few moments to mentally organize. Of course I will update and edit and do all the things consistent with quality writing, but I usually have a pretty good idea of how I want to lay things out before I even start. This is not one of those posts. If everything that follows here comes across as a bit of a hodge-podge, I guess you’ll know why.

First thing is first: The Southern Poverty Law Center has put together a list of a number of websites which are devoted to men’s rights. See here. Most of the sites, if not all of them, are pretty impossible to defend in their entirety. Some of them do express popular views at times, but they also express views which should be offensive to any intelligent person. Others seem to be devoted to nothing more than hating women. For example, on the site Boycott American Women is this:

This site’s mission statement describes American women as “generally immature, selfish, extremely arrogant and self-centered, mentally unstable, irresponsible and highly unchaste. The behavior of most American women is utterly disgusting.”

That is more ridiculous than the time PZ called the majority of young men “superficial” and “cartoonish”. Broad generalizations like those of Boycott and PZ are just stupid. No reasonable person can really defend any of that garbage; it’s all emotionally based bitterness.

All that said, I agree with Marc Randazza when he says the SPLC has some mission creep going on here. I realize a major point of the organization is to shine a light on hate groups, but that doesn’t really seem to be the goal here. It usually focuses on groups that, ya know, matter. All it’s doing here is targeting some minor websites and bloggers that appeal to a dickish Internet crowd. If that’s where they want to focus their efforts, then I don’t see why they aren’t combing YouTube comments.

While I would like to leave the implication that I became aware of the SPLC’s blacklist of websites through Mr. Randazza, I have to admit I actually came across it on PZ’s site first. I stopped reading Pharyngula quite some time ago, but I recently told Nate that I bet PZ would have the most recent xkcd cartoon up within a day. I was right. So in checking for his post about the cartoon, I also saw his post on the SPLC; I decided to check out the comments. Once again, my mental layout for where I want to go is all hodge-podgey, so I will start with this post from user omnicrom:

The really irritating thing for me is that the MRA [Men’s Rights Activists] have to an extent made “Feminism” a dirty word. And it really shouldn’t be. Feminism except in ugly extreme cases way in the outliers is about making Men and Women equal. So the really disgusting thing about the MRA is that they aren’t really reacting to Misandry (and REAL misandry should be called out), they’re trying to keep Women less than Men. No matter what they say the MRA movement is rotten to its very core, and its poison makes people raise eyebrows when I as a man say that I’m a feminist.

First of all, I think the majority of the problems with feminism come from feminists themselves. omnicrom is right when he says feminism is about making men and women equal, but feminists often miss that point, playing a shell game. Take my run-in with Suzanne Franks, aka Thus Spake Zuska. I disagreed that a picture of two fat women next to an article about fat women and healthcare was sexist. For that disagreement I was immediately labeled a number of derogatory things; because I did not buy into the majority view of a particular group of feminists wholesale, I was seen as being sexist. In other words, feminists give feminism a bad name when they play shell games.

Second, polemics beget polemics. Some of the extreme views of some feminists (such as Franks and PZ) invite polarization. When we have people running around attacking men in generalities and calling people sexist for the least of reasons, we should expect to see some extreme reactions in at least some people. Let’s take one of the issues mentioned by a few of the blacklisted websites: rape accusations. The men’s rights sites point out that men are considered guilty by default when they get accused of rape. (Some go further and stupidly accuse women of commonly using the cry of rape to falsely attack men.) The feminist reaction is to declare, at the least, sexism. At the most, a pro-rape mentality is claimed. Neither side is being fair. It is obviously dangerous to go so far as to presume a woman is lying when says she has been raped. Yet, on the other hand, some people do lie about that sort of thing. Take the Duke Lacrosse scandal. I bet there are at least a few people who read that now and think, “Oh, that’s the case where those Duke players raped that stripper.” The reality, though, is that she lied, the lead prosecutor was disbarred and sent to jail, and the players are still seeking damages. There is room for admitting that this sort of thing happens without also saying that women are conniving liars who are out to get men.

There is a lot about feminism that I like. Before I found myself engaged in the topic, there were a lot of things I did not realize that I do now. I’m happy and grateful for that. However, I find myself highly disenchanted by certain actions and tactics of its adherents. Take the SPLC’s blacklist. It’s a collection of a few minor websites that express a lot of extreme views, but look at how it is being used. People who favor men’s rights are being lumped in with a bunch of assholes – it’s dishonest. I don’t want to sit here and pretend like men have a hard time of it comparatively; I’m not about to claim men are an oppressed group and we need to make sure we do everything we can as a society to promote men. I’m not going to say any of that because, believe it or not, I get it. I get that men, generally speaking, have it easier than women. That said, for those who favor government assistance directed at struggling women, isn’t it also reasonable to favor assistance that is directed towards struggling men? For instance, young men were hit especially hard by the recession. Would it be sexist to do something to help the men who lost their jobs in, say, construction? I don’t think so, but it’s almost impossible to argue that to some feminists because they’ll immediately resort to the “MRA” (Men’s Rights Activist) label, shutting down discussion and lumping reasonable men in with the cherry-picked bullshit the SPLC has put together.

I want to wrap this up in a succinct way, so here it goes: The problem with the Southern Poverty Law Center’s blacklist and a number of feminists is that they use polemics to shut down discussion. That is, they attempt to connect anyone who disagrees with particular claims of feminism with people who make outlandish claims about women. The effect is that no one wants to be associated with the dregs of society, so people tend to stay away from even reasonable positions if those positions overlap with the views of said dregs. To compound the issue, some of the outlandish claims are a product of the polemic-promotion seen all too often in feminism. All this adds up to undermine the goals of feminists and create unnecessary division.

5 Responses

  1. Really, after the end of conscription in North America, there aren’t very many pressing men’s rights issues sitting around. (I can think of two: Rape trials and biased custody battles. And there’s no easy solution for the former, as it’s not an easy crime to deal with.)

    There are always niggling things to deal with at the edges, for both men’s rights and women’s rights (moreso for women’s rights, I imagine). But now that the most outrageous issues have been dealt with and now that society has got to the point where gender equality is the ideal, the urgency is gone. I imagine that the people who still describe themselves as feminists and MRAs are the ones who haven’t quite come to terms with the fact that the big, dramatic, exciting moral crusades have been won and now it’s down to the dull, boring details.

    A polemical debating style doesn’t jive with boring details.

  2. My only thing is I think the right way to approach any criminal case is to assume that everyone is lying about everything, and sort it out from there.

    It goes along with the presumption of innocence we all have when accused of any crime. If I were to be accused by a woman of rape (theft, whatever, or by a man, it doesn’t really matter), I would hope that the police would assume she was lying, if they didn’t do that, and if juries didn’t, there would be little need to collect further evidence. Thankfully, the justice system (ideally) is supposed to assume everyone is innocent and give them the benefit of the doubt that the accuser has made it all up until the evidence overwhelmingly supports another conclusion. 99.9% overwhelmingly.

    At least in so many words. “Lying” may not really be the right term, but I’m sure you get my point.

  3. Bravo, great post

  4. Look I have watched a man shoot himself at the Tyndall Credit Union in Panama City Beach ,Florida over child support he pleaded with his wife . I saw the blood splatter for about 6 feet. My neighbor a hard working correctional officer had half of wages taken from him for child support he was unable to pay rent and eat right and unable to socialize and have a life . I spoke with him in the community pool where i lived 2 hours later while I wen to bed I heard a loud thump from the celing I thought nothing out it .
    Later I found of that thump was his body . In Florida over half a mans pay is taken from him due to Child Support . We have women popping out babies and getting free or affordable housing but what about our men in Florida we have dorms that are made just for Vets
    70 percent of African American women are single–of-African-American-women-single—.aspx?bcmediaid=f4d18432-7a9f-4e6c-8d77-e2419044c312
    Their own women are denying them .Our men are working on wages that that are from the 70s and with gas prices you cant even live. We are filling up prisons with men that have half of their chedk taken away and expect men to live on the rest and be loving fathers when they have to steal to pay child support men are going to jail in Florida all over Florida to pay child support.
    What are they getting in return nothing .No sex .No affordable housing , nothing and to make matters worse their are no job that pay a man enough to live on our manfacturing jobs are paying crap .
    If a child can not live on $7.50 how can a man . The Mens Right Movement is about Fathers Rights , Child Support Issues and equality its not about violence look at sites like the ANCPR the advocate nothing more than men knowing the law .
    We are killing our men while I write this I am dying I feel my heart rapidly beating not like it did 10 years ago . The stress of low wages and other issues such as affordable housing is killing our men we are going gay for heaven sakes .Its easier now to find a man than it is a women . Why wait a year when you can have it today . Men are becoming tired of playing the poppie role with no money . Men that once made $50,000 a year at a union or a plant are working for $7.50 scrubbing some grill and paying for something they never see of feel this crap has to change.
    At one time I worked to have a women now when I work I work to take care of myself . I seek to be responsible and not a burden t society . Responsible men deserve access to housing and jobs and even the WIA program has shown discrimnation against men.

  5. […] this like crazy because the men’s rights movement (MRM) is so often vilified. For example, the Southern Poverty Law Center went idiot hunting last year. What they found was a handful of barely popular fringe websites that were antagonistic towards […]

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